BASS FISHINGBass Fishing Sports Blog

This fishing report, provided by the Department of Game and Fish, has been generated from the best information available from area officers, anglers, guides and local businesses. Conditions may vary as stream, lake and weather conditions alter fish and angler activities.

East-Central, including the Pecos River

Coyote Creek — Closed for the season will reopen next spring.

Pecos River — no read on flow due to ice. The upper river is under ice. In lower sections, fish the afternoon hours, especially while the sun is on the water.

Conchas Lake — no report due to no traffic at the lake this past week

Morphy Lake — The lake has closed for the season and will reopen next spring.

Santa Rosa Lake — no report.

Storrie Lake — Fishing is slow to fair for trout due to light traffic and cold weather.

Sumner Lake — no report.

Ute Lake — no report.

Northeast

Cimarron River — no read on flows due to ice. The Cimarron is done until spring.

Costilla Creek — The flow is 36 cfs near the town of Costilla. Fishing is reported as slow below the Valle Vidal boundary, water levels are very low and there is snow and ice.

Red River — no read on flow due to ice at Questa and 36 cfs below the hatchery. Fishing for trout is reported as fair with better fishing on the lower stretches. Fish are being caught using all methods.

Rio Grande — no read on flow due to ice at Cerro and 405 cfs below the Taos Junction Bridge. Water levels are high and fishing is reported as slow to fair for pike. best bet is to use large red and white lures or flies. Trout fishing is very slow with small activity. The river from Pilar to Cochiti Lake was stocked with 3,950 triploid rainbow trout last week.

Rio Hondo — no read on flow due to ice. Trout fishing is reported as slow with snow and ice. best bet is to fish at the confluence with the Rio Grande.

Rio Pueblo — no read on flow due to ice. no report.

Charette Lakes — The lake has closed for the season and will reopen next spring.

Clayton Lake — The lake has closed for the season and will reopen next spring.

Eagle Nest Lake — The lake is closed to fishing until the ice is thick enough to allow it. at least read the ice was just over five inches. nine inches is needed to allow people out on the lake.

Lake Alice and Lake Maloya — Lake Maloya is mostly covered with ice and closed until the ice is safe. The lake was stocked with 3,001 triploid rainbow trout last week.

Maxwell Lakes — The lake has closed for the season and will reopen next spring.

Shuree Ponds — no report. Closes for the season Dec. 31.

Springer Lakes — no report. Springer Lake is closed to ice fishing.

Northwest

Animas River — The flow is 247 cfs. Fishing is reported as slow due to weather and a lack of activity from the fish and anglers.

Chama River — no read on flow due to ice on the upper stretches. Below El Vado Lake the flow is 186 cfs and the flow below Abiquiu Lake is 236 cfs. The Chama below El Vado dam has the most consistent excellent fishing on the Chama. The stretch downstream of the village of Chama into El Vado reservoir is slowing down. The release out of El Vado is murky but fishable. The stretch below Abiquiu Dam is fishing excellent and the water clarity is getting better.

San Juan River — Upper section. Catch and release flow is 475 cfs. Midges are hatching all day long. at the moment they are very small, midge pupa and larvae, size 22 to 28, gray, black, chocolate, cream and olive have been best. The hatch is strongest from 10 a.m. to 1 p.m. Try fishing BWO’s from 1 to 5 p.m. The hatch is getting lighter as winter is here but the fish are still looking for them. Dark or light gray, brown and olive have been the best colors in a size 20 and 22. both dry and wet patterns. Back to black and brown midges in the evenings. Bunny leaches are fantastic attractors in brown, black, purple, and white. it is the time of year for eggs and larvae. Orange, peach and pink have been the best colors for eggs. Fish a red or orange larva behind it.

Abiquiu Lake — Fishing is slow for all species. no staff on site until spring.

El Vado Lake — no report due to weather and a lack of anglers. Ice is forming around the edges of the lake.

Heron Lake — no report due to weather and a lack of anglers. Ice is forming around the edges of the lake.

Jackson Lake — Trout fishing is reported as fair using Power Bait, salmon eggs and worms from shore.

Lake Farmington — Trout fishing is reported as fair using Power Bait, salmon eggs and worms. best success is reported close to the dam. The lake was stocked with 2,999 rainbow trout last week.

Morgan Lake — Fishing for bass is reported as slow to fair when using crank baits and various plastics.

Navajo Lake — Trout fishing continues to be fair to excellent from the dam using spinners and streamers.

West-Central, including the Jemez Mountains

Jemez River, East Fork, Guadalupe and San Antonio — Flow on the Jemez River is 16 cfs. The lower Guadalupe can be accessed below Gilman tunnels and is fishing fair in the warmer part of the day. The lower Jemez was stocked Nov. 11 and may be worth fishing for rainbows. The Valles Caldera National Preserve has closed the fishing program until spring.

Metro Drainages — The fishing is reported as fair with most methods catching fish. The drainages were stocked last week: Albuquerque with 303 triploid rainbow trout; Belen with 202; Bernalillo with 80; Corrales with 118; and Peralta with 250.

Bluewater Lake — Fishing for trout is reported as slow due to ice on the lake.

Cochiti Lake — no report. The lake is closed for the season along the Tetilla side. The upper lake is also closed above Tetilla due to a log boom in place on the lake.

Fenton Lake — The lake is iced over and there is no ice fishing due to unsafe conditions. Warm thermal releases under the ice make for unsafe conditions. The lake will most likely be closed until spring thaw.

Tingley Beach — Trout fishing in the Tingley Beach Children’s and Central Ponds has been excellent. best reports are from anglers using salmon eggs and Pistol Petes. The ponds were stocked with 2,399 triploid rainbow trout last week. Reports from glide—rod anglers at the South/Catch and Release Pond have been hit and miss; success has been reported when using bunny leeches, midges and black beetles.

Southwest

Gila River — The flow is 120 cfs and fishing is slow.

Rio Grande — no report.

Bill Evans Lake — Fishing for trout is reported as fair with most methods working.

Caballo Lake — Fishing remains the same and reported as slow. Water levels are very low.

Elephant Butte Lake — no report.

Glenwood Ponds — Fishing is slow for trout.

Lake Roberts — Trout fishing is reported as slow with worms and Power Bait.

Quemado Lake — no report.

Southeast

Rio Ruidoso — Flow is .85 cfs in town and 3.2 cfs at Hollywood. Fishing is reported as slow on the lower stretches of the river where the flows are a bit higher.

Bonito Lake — The lake is closed for the season and will reopen next spring.

Bottomless Lakes — no report.

Brantley Reservoir — There has been light pressure and no current report. a mandatory catch and release is in place at Brantley Lake because pesticides have been found in the fish. do not keep or eat them.

Grindstone Reservoir — Fishing is slow to fair for trout using worms, Power Bait and Pistol Petes.

Darn it! only nine days left to place some tasty rockcod on the table, I don’t know why I have these panic attacks.

Probably because the thought of not being able to fish for them hurts me to the bone even if things will be better this coming year with a longer season for lingcod and sculpin. those days of January and February with no fishing will seem like an eternity.

As I’ve mentioned in past columns, most of my trips to local fishing spots in pursuit of bass and halibut invariably end up dropping down for rockfish, especially if the bass and halibut contracted lockjaw.

Sculpin are the best on the table and hang around in hard bottom spots like shipwrecks and reefs and are mostly found in slightly shallower areas than the rockfish. if you see large sculpin counts in the newspaper that means the bass and halibut aren’t biting so the sportboats concentrate on the sculpin. so on your next trip you can save time by going directly to the sculpin holes.

El Ni o: Is El Ni o upon us? That weird questionable weather influence is again challenging many of our amateur forecasters. as you all know, if the weather deviates from the norm it is immediately blamed on El Ni o. The early storms have caused a greening of the hills, which usually doesn’t happen until later, yes that’s El Ni o. The local winter bass fishing usually doesn’t kick off until later, that is El Ni o. if the local waters stay warm or warm up, that also means El Ni o is upon us.

The freshwater steelhead fishing is doing weird things in that the fish are moving up the rivers two to three weeks ahead of schedule. The wild hog hunting has been excellent and it is forecasted the wild hogs will get off at least two strong births of piglets this year and duck hunting has been better than ever. Hooray for El Ni o, I think. … let’s hope I didn’t jinx it.

Bait squid: Don Ashley of Pierpoint says there is so much squid out in front that the commercials are brailing two tons at night. The commercials can’t use seine nets because it’s against regulations to purse seine after Nov. 18 so they use hand held wood-handled nets (braile nets). The private boat sportsmen are using squid jigs in the daylight to load plenty of live squid for a day’s fishing. Ashley said the rockfish are more than thick out over the spots and they are quality fish.

The excellent news is the fish are hanging around in very shallow spots less than 150 feet deep. also, now’s the time to fish the wrecks with lead head jigs and a whole live or fresh dead squid. Cast it out and let it spool out all the way to the bottom. if a bass doesn’t gulp it up on the drop, then it’s certain a sculpin will attack it when it contacts the bottom.

Tournament season: The first tournament of the year is almost upon us. The 17th San Diego Anglers Open Bay Bass tournament will take place Feb.4 in San Diego Bay. Two-man teams will fish the Bay for the heaviest stringer of five bass. The bass can be of any species in combination. The heaviest stringer will win first place ($1,500) and the Optional Jackpot. Optional Jackpot winnings are usually 2-3 times more than the first-place money.

Last year, the Optional Jackpot went for $4,000 and the five bass that went for 16.26 pounds were winners. The tournament will start at the Shelter Island Launch Ramp in San Diego Bay. Entry Forms can be found in San Diego tackle shops and at sandiegoanglers.com.

Patriot Sportfishing: when talking about tremendous rockfishing, you have to mention Patriot Sportfishing in Avila Beach. they catch rockfish in very shallow water – so shallow you can use normal equipment for them and not the heavy tackle we use locally for fishing in our 360-foot depths.

The landing offers “Rock n Crab” trips where you fish for both crabs and rockfish. On one rockfish trip this month they caught 70 Dungeness crabs and six rock crabs. The boat also furnishes the crab pots and the passengers trade off on pulling them up. their lingcod contest will end with the rockfish season on Dec. 31. First place ($3,000) is currently held by Guy Leo with a ling caught at 26.4 pounds. William Chong is in second ($2,000) at 19 pounds, and Brad Hudson is in third ($1,000) at 18.12 pounds. For information, call: 805-595-7200.

Eastern Sierra: those areas that are still open after the main closures are turning out trout like it was the middle of summer. usually fishing slows down at this time on the upper Owens and the lower Owens. but this fall, the fishing has been doing just the opposite.

Both sections are fishing their best right now. if you can stand the early morning cold things might warm up for you. Two trophy-sized rainbows in the 26-inch and 4-pound size were recently caught.

Contrary to what you might think, the current winter season has not seen much winter and the fish were caught on flys.

December 09, 2011

COASTWIDE – Ocean conditions look potentially good for Saturday, but the weather can change quickly here in December.

Bottomfish anglers may venture past the 20-fathom line for the remainder of the month, but few have bothered recently to make deep-water runs. those who do are finding a nice mix of black rockfish and lingcod.

The marine aggregate limit in Oregon is seven rockfish a day. Cabezon can no longer be kept by boat anglers because the quota has been met. The lingcod limit is two a day with a 22-inch minimum, and that is separate from the marine aggregate.

The ocean is closed to recreational crabbing until Thursday. The commercial season also is scheduled to start Thursday, Dec. 15.

For clamming, the entire Oregon Coast is open. a minus tide series started yesterday and is forecast to run until Wednesday, Dec. 14. with the heavy winter surf, beach diggers should watch closely for sneaker waves.

BROOKINGS – a few anglers have been venturing out this week for bottomfish and were finding very good results off near-shore kelp beds. a few lingcod also have been in the mix.

COOS BAY – Crabbing is brilliant now. Freshwater flows remain low and salinity remains high. good catches have been reported at the public docks in Charleston, and the Dungeness meat levels have improved.

Excellent catches of rockfish have come when anglers have been able to get across the bar, and this weekend could present some decent conditions — especially early in the morning before the winds kick up. Fishing for black and blue rockfish off or near the north jetty has been good at the high and low slack tides.

WINCHESTER BAY – Sturgeon fishing is slow. Crabbing has become very good in the triangle area as river flows have dropped.

AGATE – a batch of legal-sized and larger trout was stocked recently for the winter trout fishery. look for very good fishing for them around the lower section of the lake, which is about 40 percent full. Worms or PowerBait will be best. no gas motors are allowed. Small electric motors are legal.

APPLEGATE – The facilities at Hart-Tish Park are closed and the low-water ramp at French Gulch is open and usable, as is the Copper ramp. For winter trout fishing, troll Triple Teasers or Wedding Ring lures with worms. Bass fishing is slowing amid cold waters.

EMIGRANT – Lots of yellow perch in the catches, but still enough crappie to keep things interesting.

A standing public-health advisory continues about eating all but trout from the lake because of elevated mercury levels.

HOWARD PRAIRIE – The lake is closed for the season.

HYATT – The lake is closed for the season.

DIAMOND – The lake is closed for the season.

LEMOLO – The lake is closed for the season.

EXPO – Fishing remains honest for stocked rainbow trout with Panther Martin lures, PowerBait and worms under bobbers.

LOST CREEK – The lake remains under a voluntary advisory against water contact following a bloom of blue-green algae. Fishing effort has dropped substantially. The boat ramp at Stewart State Park is unusable, but the Takelma ramp near the dam is supposedly operable at all water levels. The lake is down slightly more than four feet below its normal winter level.

FISH – For late-fall trout fishing, troll Triple Teasers, Tasmanian Devils and Wedding Rings with worms. Bank fish with worms or PowerBait. The lake is still mostly ice-free but the water is cold. The Forest Service ramp near the resort remains open.

WILLOW – Fishing is honest for legal-sized and larger rainbow trout stocked there earlier this year. Troll deep and slow, or fish PowerBait off the bottom.

ROGUE – The upper Rogue is still holding its own for late-run summer steelhead and even a few coho amid stable but cold river flows, while the middle Rogue is slow for steelhead and halfpounders thanks to cold conditions, and the lower Rogue is nearly stagnant from low and cold flows. This could be the mantra for as long as another week as cold and dry conditions put a vise grip on Southern Oregon’s mid-December fishing.

That keeps the best bet at the upper Rogue, mainly because the hatchery steelhead are still good enough for the smoker and nothing else is really worth driving to until another flurry of rain jump-starts the fishery, and forecasts are calling for dry weather for at least another week.

Flows out of Lost Creek Lake were steady at about 1,450 cubic feet per second of 43-degree water Thursday, leaving the upper Rogue low and cold. Still, huge, late-run winter steelhead were biting throughout the stretch.

It remains artificial flies and lures only from the Shady Cove Park ramp down to the ancient Gold Ray Dam site. that means good opportunities for those fishing plugs, and hard-plastic, single-egg flies will usually work well around spawning redds. Fishing was good on this stretch this week with K-11 Kwikfish and Rebel crayfish plugs, black jigs under bobbers and fake egg clusters side-drifted from boats. no bait is allowed in that zone until Jan. 1.

Bait fishing is allowed upstream of the Shady Cove ramp, and driftboaters this week have done fairly well side-drifting tiny clusters of roe behind salmon redds. Small pieces of roe are best.

The upper Rogue is seeing a steady stream of coho salmon, but they are tough to get to bite. Purple or red plugs can work well, but coho are notoriously poor biters. All wild coho must be released unharmed.

In the middle Rogue, steelhead fishing has slowed to a crawl near creek mouths where wild summer steelhead are waiting to spawn. It’s still a little early for them to enter the spawning streams, so focus on these areas for catch-and-release fishing. Small egg clusters, streamer flies on sink-tip lines and plugs all work well for summer steelhead. slow, deep presentations of flies, bait and lures work best because the cold water has left steelhead sluggish.

The vast majority of them are wild there and must be released unharmed.

In the lower Rogue, low and clear conditions have nearly shut down early season winter steelhead fishing at lower-river gravel bars. Anglers can see the steelhead in riffles and tail-outs, but they are very skittish.

The Agness area remains slow for adult summer steelhead and halfpounders in riffles. Fish mornings and evenings with streamer flies, worms, eggs or plugs.

Chinook fishing is closed from the Hog Creek boat ramp up to the hatchery.

APPLEGATE – The river is open to trout fishing. All wild trout, including cutthroat, must be released unharmed. it is illegal to target summer steelhead in the lower Applegate.

UMPQUA – The North Umpqua is slow for summer steelhead amid cold and low flows, but a few more fish have went into the Swiftwater area of late. Only unweighted flies may be used in the glide water now. The South Umpqua is open, but flows are low and early-run winter steelhead haven’t made it up there yet.

CHETCO – The river was flowing at just above 1,000 cfs Thursday, and that has slowed late-season fall chinook and early-season winter steelhead fishing. some chinook are holding in upper river holes and they can be caught on flies and plugs, but the action is erratic.

ELK/SIXES – both rivers were very low and clear, making for hard fishing conditions for late-run chinook and early winter steelhead. Forecasts are for dry weather for at least a week, and river forecasters are looking for some very low flows next week.

Ads by Google

Just about everyone agrees this has been a colder fall than most. That, and a lack of rainfall, could mean we are going into a dry winter with little rainfall ahead. we are presently at least two inches behind a normal year in regard to rainfall. according to weather experts, the reason for this unusual weather is that California is experiencing La Nina conditions.

In fact, the current forecast from the Experimental Climate Prediction Center at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography is forecasting cool La Nina conditions this winter (December 2011 through February 2012).

What is La Nina? according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), La Nina is characterized by unusually cold ocean temperatures in the equatorial Pacific, as compared to El Nino, which is characterized by unusually warm ocean temperatures in the equatorial Pacific. Global climate anomalies associated with La Nina tend to be opposite those of El Nino. La Nina the name means the little Girl is sometimes called El Viejo.

At higher latitudes, El Nino is only one of a number of factors that influence climate. But, the impacts of El Nino and La Nina at these latitudes are most clearly seen in wintertime. In the continental United States, during El Nino years, temperatures in the winter are warmer than normal in the North Central States and cooler than normal in the Southeast and the Southwest. During a La Nina year, winter temperatures are warmer than normal in the Southeast and cooler than normal in the Northwest. A La Nina often follows an El Nino year.

California lies just at the edge of effects of a La Nina and the weather can be either colder and drier, or wetter and warmer than normal. this year it appears we will have a drier than normal year. A excellent example has been in Southern California where there has been nearly no rain and daily temperatures of 80 degrees or more.

The effects of a drought could have a significant effect on fish and wildlife in the county. There will be less feed for deer, turkeys, quail and other wildlife and the fish might experience less than desirable spawning conditions. actually, the major impact won’t be noticeable until late summer or early fall.

What effect would a severe drought mean to the fish in the lake? well, for one thing, because the lake level would be lower than normal, the bass wouldn’t be able to get back into the tules to spawn, which means the eggs and nests would be exposed to waves and predators. There also would be more weeds. low water conditions and clear water are the ideal ingredients for weed growth.

In the event of more weed growth, this would require more effort to control it. last summer there was an above average amount of aquatic weeds. if the drought continues into the coming summer there likely will be a call for more of the spraying and weed harvesting.

Droughts have a major impact on shallow lakes such as Clear Lake. we don’t have much water to start with and because the lake is so large and shallow a tremendous amount of evaporation takes place during the searing hot days of July and August. also, Yolo County could be tapping the lake for water, depending on the lake level on may 1.

Other lakes in Northern California will be similarly impacted. Indian Valley Reservoir is a excellent example. the lake is presently down only about 30 feet, but if we don’t get additional runoff to fill the lake this winter, it could be drained to little more than a mud puddle by the end of summer. the same applies to Lake Pillsbury. the lake is currently down to only 38 percent of its carrying capacity and it will take a series of wet storms to fill it.

Of course, that could all change in a rush. normally the months of January and February are the wettest months and it’s a little too early to be concerned. A few years ago the conditions were similar and the “March Miracle” occurred and the lake was full within a matter of two weeks. last year also was supposed to be a La Nina but we had a wet winter and finished up with a full lake.

All is not gloom and doom. Clear Lake has survived hundreds of droughts in its long history and another one would be just part of nature. besides, there is little we can do to control the weather.

Published: Friday, December 2, 2011 at 11:57 p.m. Last Modified: Friday, December 2, 2011 at 11:57 p.m.

PORT MANATEE | Snook season has remained closed on Florida’s Gulf Coast for almost two years because of a record-breaking stretch of freezing weather that killed at least 225,000 snook statewide.

Facts

A PROPOSED NETWORK?of hatcheries would go fish culture from outdoor ponds to indoor lab settings. one facility would provide the offspring, like the 6-week-ancient redfish above. those fish would go to other places to grow to larger sizes.

Closing the recreational fishery until at least September 2012 for one of Florida’s most well loved gamefish was the only option to give snook stocks time to rebuild.

Flats fishermen have turned their focus to trout and redfish, which are now abundant in the Tampa Bay region. but their populations also plummeted because of red tide and commercial netting during the past three decades.

And gag grouper and red snapper seasons in the Gulf of Mexico are shut down for most of the year because federal fishery managers say they are overfished.

In an effort to replenish native stocks of gamefish, state fishery scientists are close to refining hatchery technology that could substantially expand the ability to restore depleted species.

“If we had the ability to do stock enhancement with snook, particularly with what happened a couple of years ago when they got wiped out, you could quickly get some fish back in the water,” said Chris Young, director of the Stock Enhancement Research Facility at Port Manatee on the southeast shore of Tampa Bay. “That’s kind of like the nirvana of stock enhancement, is that you could restore a population that got wiped out.”

The innovative concept being developed at the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission facility at Port Manatee — intensive fish culture — is a fully indoor recirculating aquaculture system designed for the large-scale production of saltwater gamefish species.

A proposed network of intensive hatcheries, which would go fish culture from outdoor ponds to indoor laboratory settings, is the cornerstone of the Florida Marine Fisheries Enhancement Initiative.

Brett Boston, executive director of the Wildlife Foundation of Florida, said the vision for the initiative is a statewide network of standardized, multi-species intensive hatcheries to be built in the next 15 years that could by 2026 produce 30 million gamefish every year.

That would be 80 times more than the 6 million hatchery redfish cultivated in outdoor ponds at Port Manatee and released over a 16-year period from 1988 to 2004, an average of 375,000 redfish per year.

The conversion to intensive fish culture is significant because it would be the first step in developing a pipeline to spawn large numbers of gamefish, also including cobia and flounder.

Restocking sport-fish could become increasingly necessary because of man-made or naturally occurring factors like severe red tide outbreaks, back-to-back freezes, declining stocks from fishing pressure, oil spills, chemical spills, encroaching development in estuarine areas and even effects of global warming.

Growing gamefish to supplement natural populations could become a critical in maintaining Florida’s saltwater fishing industry and its $5.4 billion annual economic impact, according to a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service survey.

“We’ve really got to start restocking these fish. If we don’t start producing fish, it’s bad for the state,” said Capt. Greg Penix of Lakeland, who guides at Boca Grande. “You can’t just keep taking with this many people on the water and not replenishing it. It’s just not working.”

IT ISN’T CHEAP

While there is small opposition to the concept of building the hatchery network, funding is a major drawback at a time when dollars are stretched thin from households to state agencies to corporate America.

“The huge debate about hatcheries is not science, it’s money, and nobody has any,” said Ted Forsgren of Tallahassee, executive director for Coastal Conservation Association-Florida, one of the initiative’s partners.

Boston said the cost of one major hatchery is $25 million to $30 million. Building three major hatcheries and six grow-out facilities for the initiative would total $270 million.

“We’ve figured out how to do it. We’ve got the recipe. We’ve got the know-how. We just don’t have the capital investment to make it a reality yet,” said Boston, who’s coordinating the initiative for the FWC with public and private partnerships.

Some might argue that gamefish can recover on their own.

Greg Watts of Eagle Lake, a professional redfish tournament champion, said, “I reckon nature has a way of taking care of itself.”

Trout bounced back in Sarasota Bay since a severe outbreak of red tide in 2005, and this has been a banner year for trophy trout 25-30 inches long.

But Boston maintains that it takes decades for fisheries to heal themselves.

Redfish eventually rebounded after stocks plummeted in the mid-1980s because of the blackened redfish craze made by New Orleans chef Paul Prudhomme in 1980, but it took more than 10 years. Netted almost to the brink of collapse by commercial fishing, redfish stocks gradually recovered following classification as a gamefish in the late 80s and then the passage of the net ban amendment by Florida voters in late 1994. Redfish became the prototype for hatchery fish culture because of the threat.

Snook, slower-growing than trout or redfish, were decimated during 10 straight days of frigid water temperatures in January 2010 that killed an estimated 15 percent of state stocks. Hurt was most severe on the Gulf Coast, although the season reopened on the Atlantic Coast this September.

Snook reproduction is being developed at Mote Marine Laboratory in Sarasota, one of the initiative’s partners under the Support Florida Sportfish umbrella.

“We can produce snook,” Boston said. “We’re almost there on being able to make it a viable, large production.”

Boston said intervention will become increasingly necessary to supplement natural populations of gamefish.

“We’ve got to have new tools in our tool kit,” Boston said. “The only tool we have now is to close fisheries.”

Intensive fish culture is that tool.

“Hopefully, we’re going to have a release within the next year,” Young said.

THREE MAJOR HATCHERIES

Boston hopes to get the Florida Marine Fisheries Enhancement Initiative off the ground by late 2014.

“We’re optimistic that within three years, we will break ground to get a new facility up and going,” Boston said. “If we don’t do it by then, it’s not going to get done.”

Plans call for a major hatchery on Florida’s central Atlantic Coast, on the Gulf Coast — probably at the 54-acre Port Manatee facility — and in the Panhandle region on Pensacola Bay.

“Likely what we’ll have is a full-scale facility on the coast that will provide the offspring. Then those offspring will go to other places to be raised to larger sizes,” Young said.

Funding for the multiple-species hatcheries will come from public-private partnerships, but Boston isn’t counting on state or federal dollars.

“Some of it will be private, some of it will be fund-raised, some of it will be grants, and potentially some of it will be the restoration dollars from BP,” Boston said. “There will be many public/private partnerships, with the emphasis on private.”

Forsgren said it may take a while to gather funding to underwrite the project.

“I reckon that it really depends on the availability of money. And then that questions the question: How much money is going to be available? up here in Tallahassee, in all the agencies, there’s no money. And they’re cutting programs,” Forsgren said.

REGIONAL NEEDS, GENETICS

Major hatcheries would supply different species depending on regional needs, time of year, genetics and existing fishery management.

Fish would be spawned at major hatcheries, then transported to grow-out facilities along the coast.

“If and when these future facilities develop, it’s going to be the area that might dictate what species we’re going to do, not necessarily what we can do,” Young said. “It might be that producing red drum might be a way to kind of shake out the facility and get your feet on the ground, but it might not be the long-term species in that area.”

For instance, it’s conceivable that snook could be stocked in Charlotte Harbor from the Port Manatee hatchery, redfish in Mosquito Lagoon from the Florida Institute of Technology’s Vero Beach Marine Laboratory, and red snapper in the Panhandle region from a new hatchery on Pensacola Bay.

Genetics are critical when stocking hatchery-raised fish.

“The redfish in Mosquito Lagoon vs. the redfish in the Atlantic vs. the redfish on the West Coast are different redfish. They have different behaviors and different genetics,” Young said.

The same is right for snook and other species.

“We’re being very, very, very careful. Our strategy is very localized,” Young said.

The timing for releasing hatchery fish is vital to “match the hatch” of wild stocks.

“We release these fish at the times of year when fish of that size would be there,” Young said.

Once fish can be produced in large scale, biologists would determine stocking needs in unison with existing management practices.

Young said each major hatchery would have three major components — fish propagation, aquatic plant production or habitat restoration, and education and outreach.

Forsgren said habitat enhancement is a vital aspect for new hatcheries, from restoring mangroves to making rubble reefs, and that volunteers are ready to help.

Conservation groups come to the spartina pond at Port Manatee that filters water after it is used in the hatchery, which is just 2,000 feet from Tampa Bay on the Hillsborough-Manatee County line. They harvest the saltwater marsh plants for restoration efforts elsewhere.

RELEASED REDFISH TRAVEL

Redfish raised at Port Manatee and released in Tampa Bay have been caught by fishermen in Charlotte Harbor, 78 miles south of Tampa Bay.

A hatchery redfish released in Biscayne Bay at Miami was caught at the Eau Gallie Causeway near Melbourne.

And a fisherman landed a 45-inch hatchery redfish that was 7 inches long when it was released.

“We know our hatchery fish are being caught to this day, and we know it because we run these fin-clip programs,” Boston said. “We’re catching a lot of our fish. We have phenomenal survival rates. Our survival rates are going to mimic nature.”

Watts, the pro from Eagle Lake, has probably caught as many redfish as any angler in Florida, including a monster 53-inch specimen he estimated at 35-40 pounds in Mosquito Lagoon.

But in a lifetime of fishing, he’s only caught three tagged redfish that he knew of — two during tournaments in Tampa Bay four or five years ago. He said none was hatchery-raised, identified by fin clips or streamer tags, the ancient way of marking hatchery fish before coded wire tags were introduced. Newer wire tags aren’t visible.

“I’ve not caught a hatchery-raised fish yet,” Watts said.

But Watts said hatcheries have proved successful in other states.

“I reckon it’s a gigantic asset. It’s worked very well in Texas,” Watts said.

Young said it is critical to know if hatchery-raised fish are being caught.

“If we can identify our fish in the field, then we can make some statements or inferences about what we’re doing and evaluate what we’re doing,” said Young, who leads a staff of 12 biologists and technicians at Port Manatee.

The 6 million redfish released from 1988 to 2004 include 4,027,630 in Project Tampa Bay from 2000 to 2004, 1,662,591 in Biscayne Bay from 1989 to 1998, and 335,663 in the Indian River Lagoon and Volusia County from 1988 to 1993.

Redfish in Project Tampa Bay were released in native habitats of the Alafia and Small Manatee rivers in three different sizes to determine which was most cost-effective.

Low percentages of recaptured hatchery redfish were documented by biologists. but determining how many were caught by anglers is hard because recapture rates include redfish sampled by scientists with nets,

Questioned whether hatchery-raised redfish respond to artificial lures the same way wild redfish do, Young admitted it was a tough question to answer. but he said it is probable.

“In order to get to slot size, they have to adapt to wild fish behavior or they’re not going to make it,” Young said.

GOALS AND REALITY

Thirty years ago, the thought of raising redfish and other saltwater gamefish in hatcheries would have seemed futuristic.

But by the middle of the 21st century, large-scale restocking of gamefish could prove vital to maintaining the popularity of recreational fishing around Florida’s 1,365 miles of coastline.

The FWC has been stocking large quantities of freshwater gamefish — largemouth bass, speckled perch and bream — from the Florida Bass Conservation Center hatchery at Richloam in the Green Swamp since 2007.

Now the Florida Marine Fisheries Enhancement Initiative has come up with a conceptual plan to address the need to stock marine gamefish in a state where 39 percent of all saltwater fishing in the United States occurs.

But reaching the goal of 30 million fish per year to help sustain the sport depends on finding funding in these most challenging times even as threats to fisheries will only increase.

“There’s goals, and then there’s reality. It’s kind of like a football program,” Boston said.

[ Del Milligan can be reached at del.milligan@theledger.com or at 863-802-7555. ]

By Wayne Hooper September 19, 2011 2:00 AM

Whenever I’ve had a problem while hunting or fishing, I’ve been able to take care of it because of preparation.

If my rifle failed to work properly, no problem. I always carried a .357 revolver as a backup, and back at camp I had a spare rifle or two. if fishing, I just picked up another rod or tied on another lure. if I fell overboard or tripped and fell into the snow, no problem. I carried a backpack in the cold months and a small duffle bag in the summer both filled with dry clothes.

I am always prepared.

But, alas, my computer malfunctioned so it is being fixed. plus, I’m downloading Microsoft Office Business so I can get Outlook, since it’s not part of Windows 7.

While there, the technician found malware, spyware and scumware. I’d never even heard of the latter. anyway, I won’t get it back for a couple of days.

Back to preparation, I simply took my ancient Gateway computer out of the closet and plugged her in. Uh-oh — no connection to the Internet.

All day, I tried this and that, unplugged the cables, turned off the computer and let it sit for 30 minutes, and then plugged it back in. no connection. Huge problem. oh, to go back to those days when I typed these articles. that was not fun, but presented very few problems.

So here I sit, behind schedule for my column and knowing that all I can do is finish typing, download it on to a memory stick, take it to the Portsmouth Herald or to a friend’s business, download it, copy and send it. Sounds simple, but it’s really just a hiccup in the path of today’s world. Unfortunately, you can’t prepare for these types of problems.

To be honest, my deadline is now, but I always send my column in early so they have time read or edit it. so technically, I’m only behind schedule in my mind, which I’m slowly losing thanks to my computer.

The weather is continuing to be mild and warm, which together make for perfect fishing days — although hunters don’t have it as excellent, as they are still swatting mosquitoes as they sneak through the woods.

No one will complain, though, as they’re doing what they like.

We fished last weekend on Kezar Lake in Lovell, Maine, and we were in fog for an hour in the morning. the fishing was tough, as we only had one keeper at mid-morning. We fished hard all day but our next keeper came late in the afternoon with only 45 minutes left in the tournament. We caught two more keepers but ended up in sixth place; my son, Shawn, and his partner, Dan Libby, beat us by nine points. so for the year they grabbed bragging rights as they passed us by a total of six points.

Hopefully, we still can claim some sort of redemption by beating them in the Maine Bass Trail Championship in October.

Will the economy keep hunters from traveling to Maine and new Hampshire this fall? the motels, cabins, restaurants, sporting goods stores, gas stations and all other businesses that rely on the hunters’ dollars hope not. have the hunters saved up for this year’s trip north or will they do day trips near their homes?

If the hunters follow the trend that fishermen have set, I would say that the numbers will be down. We fished many bass tournaments this year where the amount of teams participating was down 10 to 15 boats over previous years. In talking to the tournament chairmen at these events, they stated that even their club tournaments weren’t drawing the numbers of past years.

If you factor in the number of miles that hunters travel to northern Maine and new Hampshire in search of huge bucks, I feel that it will be a bad year for all of the businesses up north. it is quite possible, though, that we will see an increase in non-resident hunters here in the southern area of both states as Massachusetts hunters take day trips across the borders.

Excellent planning on your part will prevent you from hunting an area that has too many sportsmen sneaking through it. Set up a couple of places where you can hunt in case your first spot is crowded. Number them in rank of importance. For example, set your first area as number one because of past experiences, less woods traffic, sitting areas, tote roads and whatever else has convinced you that it is your favorite spot. Your next area might be a spot where there are steep hills that would deter many hunters. Your final area would be hunting in a friend’s backyard that is posted, “hunting by permission only.”

This area might not be as excellent as your other spots, but you will most likely have it all to yourself.

Wayne Hooper is a member of the new England Outdoor Writers Association and a lifelong Seacoast resident. He can be reached at .

Ads by Google

I'm a rookie at bass fishing. There's this pond near where I live and I like to go fishing there. I want to catch some bass but it seems they're not very active. since it's not big at all I know I'm fishing in the right area. I feel like the fish is just watching the lure run right by them laughing a me. a friend of mine caught a 4-5 pound large mouth but I've only caught 3 small ones after fishing daily for more than two weeks. I fished in all weather types, rain, wind, sunny and cold. what baits are good if bass doesn't seem to want to strike.

Go back to the place and go and fly fishing in that place o.k. So you can laughing at them for ones.

try Texas rigged plastic worms or tubes and use a VERY slow retrieve. I noticed that in the heat of the summer, when the bass slow down this method has worked well for me, try different colors, if the water is clear use a green or pumpkinseed or motor oil color.,those colors mimic crawfish. try a white or silver, that mimics shad. if the water is murky use something brighter.

Fireman has the right idea!

Sounds like this pond is fished "regular". Fishing "pressure" is probably pretty high. The three things you can do to improve your catch ratio in a pressured pond:

1. Downsize your line
2. Downsize your lure's
3. SLOW down your retrieve

Try using 6-8LB Berkley "Vanish" line. Try using a 4 inch worm or jig/grub. and take your time casting & retrieving!

Play this game: give yourself only 3 casts to catch a fish. THREE casts only! After 3 casts you have to move to a different location. THIS will help you to SLOW down your retrieve!

Ponds usually have 2-5 "open" (non-brushy) areas where everyone has some casting room. Fish get acclimated to seeing lures come from these "holes in the treeline". Try to find different areas to cast from! you may wish to buy some waders or (if in a warmer climate) wear some shorts and "get wet".

I can nearly guarantee if you throw a "Camo" colored 4" Berkley Powerbait worm rigged Texas-style you will get some strikes!

Hope this helps? good luck!

I,ve encountered this situation often and I,ve found that if you go to a lighter line like 6 lb test and use a plain type worm like a finess or trick worm with no weight you can catch soom of these inactive bass.what this does in give the bait a more natural look as the bait falls through the water column more slowly.use light twiches and work the bait very slowly and match the color of the bait to the color of the water. good luck

a berkley worm texas rigged real real slow or a big berkley grub real slow

what you need to do is

present different baits to them

change your retrieve speed

there is no catch all or catch any time bait, you just have to keep trying.

excellent luck

Hello

First of all, when bass are inactive you should use slow fishing methods like jigging and still fishing. bass are very inactive do to the cold water. when its is spring they will eat anything and everything 'cause they didn't eat much during the winter.

Excellent-Luck

Catching Bass Finesse Fishing
Ever have one of those tough days when the fish just won't bite? Try finesse fishing – using tiny lures and light line to make that finicky fish eat. you can nearly always catch something, and what you do catch will fight much better on ultralight tackle needed to fish this way.
A bass tournament in late September is a good example of what I am talking about. we fished Lake Logan Martin in Alabama for the first time ever for me and most other club members. in 17 hot hours in two days, I caught only 5 keeper bass weighing 9-1, but that gave me second place. The water was still in the mid-80 degree range and the bass were not feeding – at least where we could find them.

I had never seen the lake before so I decided to look for something familiar. we stayed just off I-20 which crossed the lake about two miles from where we took off each morning.

I went back to the bridge and started throwing top water plugs Saturday morning in the nearly-dark after the 7:00 blastoff. a couple of small fish hit at my Tiny Torpedo but did not take it. Fish kept hitting small shad around my boat. I watched and the shad were tiny – about 3/4 of an inch long. I kept going to smaller and smaller baits trying to "match the hatch" like a fly fisherman. a slider was too big so I tried a small crappie jig. Soon after I started casting it to the bridge pilings, I caught a crappie that weighed a pound and 12 ounces on the scales at weigh-in. They would not let me count it, but it did fight good on the ultralight outfit and six pound line I was using. It also tasted good when fried the next week! I managed to catch my five keeper spotted bass, including one that was big fish for the tournament at 3 lbs. 4 ozs, on either sliders or crappie jigs. since they were spotted bass they really fought hard. I landed several throwback bass and about 7 more crappie, although none of them were as big as the first. I also caught 8 hybrids in the two pound range and didn't reckon I would ever get them to the boat.

Try small lures around deep water structure when the fishing is tough. Bridge pilings hold all kinds of fish – I have caught bream, yellow perch, two rainbow trout and one sauger as well as the species of fish I caught at Logan Martin on this pattern. I especially like a Slider rig or a crappie jig. Charlie Brewer's slider fishing got me started on this type fishing many years ago.

Another tactic is to tie on a tiny crankbait like a Tiny O or a mini Rat-L-Trap. these small lures look like tiny baitfish and work when the fish are feeding on them. They have more action than the crappie jig and you can fish them faster. They work well when the fish are schooling out over deep water, chasing tiny shad.

I fish all the above on a five foot ultralight rod and small spinning reel. Six pound Stren Maxithin Line is what I usually use but I will drop to four if the fish make me go that light. With the right outfit, you can cast a 1/16 ounce crappie jig a long way!

You can finesse worm fishing also. use a 4 inch worm on a Carolina rig rather than a bigger bait. a Georgia company, Zoom Baits, even calls their small, thin worm a Finesse worm. use it on a long leader when the bass are suspended off the bottom and won't hit. you can also use a small worm and a 1/16 ounce lead on a Texas rig when the fish want something close to the bottom. Split shoting is another way to finesse a worm. I discussed it last week in my article on the basics of worm fishing.

That barking you keep hearing? when you head outside? maybe not the neighbor’s golden retriever. Nope, it’s August in Boulder, which means the dog days of summer are here. and they’ve been hot.

Sure, you could take pop star Nelly’s advice and just “take off all your clothes,” but strutting from place to place in your birthday suit isn’t the most discreet (or legal) option. and even noodling around in the nude may not help when the mercury soars above 90.

What you need when your personal thermometer hits “sweltering,” is water. Dive in. Feel refreshed. Ahhhh… It’s simple enough, but in our semi-arid climate, dunking isn’t as simple as when you are at the beach.

But here are five spots within simple driving distance where you can pull on the baggies or two-piece, hop in the car and delight in a late summer dip.

Boulder Reservoir

5565 N. 51st St., Boulder

Hit the beach without paying airfare by heading to the sandy stretches at Boulder Reservoir.

“For a landlocked state, there’s not too many public beaches to go to,” says Stacey Cole, reservoir manager.

It’s not Hawaii, but this multi-use recreation area owned and managed by the city of Boulder is a suitable substitute to get feed your boating/swimming/sun bathing/water skiing jones. Feel free to bring a fishing pole, too for the bass, walleye and catfish lurking in the depths.

The entire reservoir spans 700 acres, with one acre (300 meters square) designated as a swimming area, over which lifeguards — four to six, depending on the day and time — watch. Spread out towels and tents on the 1,000-yard-long beach line.

If you’re worried about crowds, hit the rez on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday.

“The scenery is fabulous, and if you an get out there for sunrise, it’s amazing,” Cole says.

The city bought the reservoir land on May 1, 1954 from the dairy farming Axelson family and filled it with water from the Colorado-Huge Thompson Project nearly a year later. Total construction cost: $1,158,027.

Though fees have risen since the 25 cents of the 1950s, the price remains reasonable: $3.75 for youth (3-18), $6.25 for adults and $4.25 for seniors (more than 60). Hours vary depending on the day of the week and the month.

Water World

1800 W 89th Ave, Denver

waterworldcolorado.com

At 46 acres, Water World is lauded as the America’s largest (and, some say, its best) water park.

Ranked among the Travel Channel’s top 10 water parks in America, Denver’s Water World features 46 different attractions that cater to kids of all ages and adventure levels. Each of its 300 lifeguards is certified by the National Aquatic Safety Company.

So if you’re looking for something mellow, opt for a relaxing float down the lazy river or take the small ones over to the small slides and shallow pools of Calypso Cove.

Up for adventure? Try the Revolution, where you’ll hop aboard a massive (it can hold four adults), cloverleaf-shaped inner tube and plunge down a dark, six stories before circling around the big bowl. You’ll likely come out a bit, er, flushed.

If you dare, go for the Pipeline, a steep body slide dropping riders three scary stories.

“You go straight down,” says Bri Marko, of guest services at Water World. “You’re horizontal and then you’re vertical. Quick.”

Water World is open 10 a.m. to 6 p.m. daily, weather permitting. Tickets: $30.99 for kids 40 to 47 inches; $35.99 for general admission, 48 inches and above; and $6.99 for seniors more than 60 years old.

Eldorado Springs Pool

294 Artesian Dr., Eldorado Springs

eldoradosprings.com

Boasting scenic vistas and historical appeal, Eldorado Springs Pool easily ranks among the top spots to cool off in the Boulder area.

“It backs up into a state park, so the whole backdrop is just canyon,” says Liz Rovira, who’s worked at the pool for seven years. “It’s unlike anything else.”

Hardly more than a belly-flop splash from Eldorado State Park, you can soak up amazing mountain while you’re soaking in the pool (whose waters can be pretty cool; just right for a super-hot day).

“It’s about the only pool you can back float in and see mountains at the same time,” Kevin Sipple, one of the Eldorado Springs Natural Artesian Water Company founders, says.

Elm trees offer shade for the expansive deck area if you want to get out of the sun. meanwhile, pumps bring 189,000 gallons of fresh spring water into the 120-by-40-foot pool whenever water levels go down, whether from f evaporation or too many well-executed cannonballs. Heaters maintain the liquid at a comfortable 78 degrees.

A slide and diving board will keep the kids busy, and with lifeguards on duty at all times, parents can relax amid all the splendor.

“It’s about the most pleased place you could ever go, as far as the customers go,” Sipple says.

Though certainly a great spot to get wet, it’s the history that makes the Eldorado Springs Pool so special. Built in 1905, this historic water hole and resort once had a guest list that read like a Who’s Who of the early 1900s. Famed patrons included Dwight and Mamie Eisenhower — who honeymooned there in 1916 — heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey, actor Douglas Fairbanks and W.C. Fields.

The pool is open daily from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m., and tickets cost $8 for adults, $5 for children (younger than 13) and seniors (more than 60).

Union Reservoir

461 County Road 26, Longmont

Union Reservoir is one of Colorado’s hard to find natural lakes. the 736-acre body of water was carved out during the last glacial age — a bit of great excellent fortune for anyone in Boulder County in search of swimming, wakeless boating, fishing, windsurfing, kayaking or just getting out of the heat and lolling in the water.

“It’s gorgeous out here,” Amy Jader, a gate attendant for Union Reservoir, says. “It’s peaceful and quiet. Relaxing.”

The yellow sand of the main beach stretches 600 yards, leading into the blue ripples that can reach up to 75 degrees. two to three lifeguards — the number varies depending on how many people are in the water — keep watch over swimmers. No dogs are allowed here, but there’s a separate beach roughly the same size where pups are free to frolic.

“(The dog beach) gives the dogs room to play, and they can be off their leashes,” Jader says, referring to the mandatory leash policy upheld in the rest of the recreational area.

At the dog beach, owners wade up to their knees (that’s the limit because there are no lifeguards), while tossing Frisbees for Rex and Fido.

Park hours change with the season and day of the week, so check their website for the most current information. Admission is $8 per vehicle.

Boulder Creek

If you’re up for adventure — and a case of goosebumps — you can hardly beat Boulder Creek. and you definitely can’t beat the price: free.

With the annual tubing ban lifted in July, the water is just right for cruising and bobbing over rocks and logs on your inflatable device of choice. Just be ready for some gasping and shortness of breath when you plunge sub-surface for the first time.

“It’s not quite like fresh snowmelt, but it’s pretty close,” says tubing vet Ian Dahlke. “It’s never comfortable, but … on a hot day it feels really excellent.”

Streaming down from Nederland’s Barker Reservoir (and higher up, mountain lakes full of glacier melt), water temperatures can be quite chilly — what some call refreshingly revitalizing and others frickin’ cold depending on their personal temperature threshold.

Flotation options run the gamut from inner tubes (the excellent, ancient-fashioned Conoco station downtown does can help you there) and pool toys and rafts. You might even see the occasional soggy mattress making its way downstream.

It’s advisable to wear something on your feet to avoid cuts and scrapes, but make sure your shoes tie on.

“You can walk down the shore and there are just random, lone flipflops,” Dahlke says.

In higher water, when small waterfalls abound, don’t go over feet-first. it might seem counterintuitive, but you’re more likely to flip backward, smacking your head on whatever is behind you. instead, opt to go over the falls backward or sideways, or just get out and walk along the bank to avoid them.

Regulations for tubing are lax, and there are no lifeguards. the creek is regulated by Boulder County, which doesn’t have any specific rules other than, we can only assume, don’t kill yourself.

crappie /porch/bass/sunfish/what is the best live bait

Out of those options it would have to be bass, but the best bites this time of year and until ice over is from the Muskie, and Northern Pike.

For your choice just worms or crappie minnows.

For me it is nothing but artificail baits, or when it gets alittle colder I will use 9" sucker minnows.

steelhead for one , wich we use roe for. we are usually wading in the river in the middle of jan and catching 10 to 15 lb'ers also sturgeon in the middle of crappy weather usually raining with anchovies , herring or all the usual shrimp baits.

Small mouth like to hit hard in the early fall when the leaves are just changin . I like usin small rubber worms and do some creek-wadin.

Okay, this is for you expert anglers. I fish small local ponds in the Lewisville, Carrollton, Frisco area. The bass were really biting in March, but with all of the cold fronts that have moved through every few days in April, I've really had inconsistent luck.

I've generally heard that fishing is better right before a front moves in and that seems to have been right. My issue is that after a huge rain or when the air temp drops from the 70-80s to 50-60 for a few days. I am not sure what to do.

Can someone help explain the patterns of bass when the air cools down suddenly, when storms/rain comes, when it's really windy (20-30 mph), when it's overcast vs cloudy, and how I should be fishing (lures, techniques, etc) in those conditions in north Texas?

first off you need to pay attenction to the temp of the water more than the air you could have a few days of 50-60 deg days and the water only changes a couple of degs if the water is colder than it has been slow down your presantion reckon of it like this how quick do you go when its cold out
than when its warm out if you have water temp up a bit fish are more likley to be active if its colder then there going to hunker down and wate for the food to come to them
look for structor like drops in the level of water also look for grass shoot patellel to it and retrive it slow there in there
ifyou have no sturctor or cover check for points and coves and do the same thing